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Dec 04, 2010, 11:30 AM // 11:30
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#1 | ||
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Academy Page
Join Date: Nov 2009
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CA (more details inside)
Greetings, my name is Pauli and you probably remember my forum ID from previous threads. I opened this thread to promote the Codex Arena (CA) by being a place to post constructive suggestions as well as discussing problematic skills that might require adjustments (or worse).
There currently are few PvP formats which consist of almost only (or only) PvPers, unlike some PvP formats which get a steady flow of PvErs as well (FA, JQ, AB and RA). PvP formats which consist of almost only PvPers suffer from the currently small PvP population. By saying PvPers I refer to people who mostly (or only) PvP, and most usually play formats in which there are no (or almost no) PvEers, like CA, HA and GvG. Quality is the name of the game here. Promoting CA might help here, and it's worth trying. However this thread was not opened to discuss the promotion itself (whether it's a good idea, or not). Suggestions One suggestion I was thinking of was turning CA into a GW2 style arena. For example, no monks. Such changes will obviously require adjustment/s. This solution isn't cost effective (resources will have to be spent) if it's only used for GW, but the testing process might promote the GW2 project. Several adjustments I'd suggest if a GW2 style arena is implemented: Make it easier for a variety of professions to support others by making recovery skills more available and/or stronger. Buff the self heals to cope with the monk's absence . Make sure Mesmers and/or Rangers (and maybe even others) have more interrupt skills available. Allow more skills per codex, at least for some professions. Consider (just consider) designing additional maps and/or objectives (like Capture Points). Another suggestion I've had in mind was to increase the reward in busy hours and/or depending on the amount of teams that have been fighting at least once per 5-10 minutes (any numeric values could be adjusted). It's a great way to also reduce the impact of match manipulation. I'd also suggest replacing the rewards for consecutive victories with a system in which you're rewarded every time you win. Notes This thread was not opened to discuss TA or HB, the way it happened in another CA thread. Those formats are gone and will probably not be back in the near future. This thread was not opened to be a substitute for a pole in which posters simply drop by to state their opinion, which isn't helping anyone at all. We all have opinions, and they often collide, so dropping by just to post them (alone) isn't constructive. Match Manipulation is a well known issue and it's Anet's responsiblity as it's easy to get the ones responsible. Therefore this thread was not opened to discuss this issue. Anything else, especially attacking other posters directly, kindly take elsewhere. Pauli Summery of good suggestions made in the thread so far (UPDATED 6/12/2010, 11:45 GMT-8, or 19:45 GMT) General Idea: League System and Instructor Day event. Quote:
Quote:
CA specific suggestions: 1. Design codex setups (/decks) in a different way. Make them somewhat less random (if it really is currently random). 2. Instead of each profession getting a fix amount of skills, stack more skills across less professions per codex setup (/deck). 3. Restrict some skills so they can't be used by all team member. A good example for such a skill would be Bonetti's Defense. Restrict them in a way that only 2-3 members can use them. 4. Add additional maps and objectives to the CA rotation. It's possible to use existing maps and objectives to make this idea more cost effective. 5. Add ATs. The amount of ATs and the time between major tournaments can be different than it currently is (GvG). 6. If the league system is implemented at CA: Consider turning the lowest league (called "Inexperienced") into a fixed bar league, just the way it is with CB (Custom Brawl). There was a suggestion to turn the entire format into CB, but I don't think this idea was so popular, really. 7. Turn CA into a GW2 style arena. If you choose this route it could be implemented in many possible ways. Give us a sign that it might be considered and we'll start offering suggestions. 8. Allow two Heroes per team, at least for the time being, to make it easier to deal with population issues. (More suggestion will be posted in time, as well as modifications to existing ones) Last edited by Pauli; Dec 18, 2010 at 09:26 AM // 09:26.. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 12:12 PM // 12:12
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#2 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Turning CA into a GW2 format without Monks is unrealistic. What about dervish healers? What about rit healers?
Monks are just the best at what they do, and they almost always have healing skills available. What if you discredit monks from CA (which is redicilous)), what is going to stop people from running rit healers? Codex Arena isn't flawed cuz there is Monks healers, it's flawed cuz there is gimmick mechanics such as hexes, pet builds and dagger/scythe attacks. IN Codex Arena, existing flaws get magnified because of the limited skill pool. When the skills are balanced, Codex is incredible fun cuz you know you won't face gimmicks. When the skills are hexes, I don't even bother to play, cuz I know it'll be shit. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 12:23 PM // 12:23
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#3 | |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Please read the whole paragraph and not just a part of it. To make sure we're on the same page I'll use bold letters to highlight the most important parts:
Quote:
I opened this thread to promote CA by either discussing suggestions, posting suggestions, or discussing problematic skills. Anything along the lines of "I just dropped by to say CA has this or that problem" belongs to a thread that was locked. It's not allowed to create a new thread about the same topic. If you have anything constructive to say which is also on topic, please go ahead. If not, I'm kindly asking you to take it elsewhere. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 12:40 PM // 12:40
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#4 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Quote:
Codex Arena will be flawed as long as skills are flawed. The arena works because RA and TA worked to a certain extend. But for a perfect state of equilibrium to happen, almost every skills in this game should be rebalanced from the ground up, because all skills were made with 8v8 in mind. How will removing the Monk class improve CA any bit whatsoever? Instead of wiping in 2 minutes against hexway, you'll now wipe 30 seconds. Sure, matches will be alot faster, but what's the point if your game comes down to whoever gets the most 40/40 casts. (Which is usually the deciding factor in hexway against hexway) Monks haven't got anything to do with codex being flawed, skills do. The fact that a WoH template is so strong isn't because Monks are strong, it's because WoH is. Reverting WoH to it's old state (Can not self target) and maybe even keeping the creeped heal (it went from 150 to 200 ish), would fix most monk issues codex has. The fact that a rit can double as a healer, again, isn't a problem with healer builds, it's a problem with skills: The only time when people run a rit second healer is when Xinrae's or Remedy is available. This is because these skills are both highly defensive AS offensive. A xinrae rit alone can force a monk to WoH every 5 seconds. (which is alot of energy) In a format with 8 people running around, Xinrae's (and remedy obv) isn't a problem at all, but in a 4v4 format, the power of these skills get amplified to such an extend you can create pressure with a rit healer as if you had 3 full damage dealers and heal with a rithealer as if you had 2 Monks, essentially creating a "4.5" man party in a 4 man format. There is nothing in this game that can change that, aside from changing the skills, which again brings me to point nr1: You'dd have to rewrite almost every skill for CA to become balanced. Last edited by Killed u man; Dec 04, 2010 at 12:48 PM // 12:48.. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 01:08 PM // 13:08
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#5 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Nov 2009
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In this post you've been a lot more constructive because you explained which skills shift the codex' balance in a way that was maybe unintended. However, there are skills which will not appear as often as others because they're more efficient than others.
I suspect the codex isn't as random as it might seem. At least when it comes to specific skills, like WoH. I remember the last time I've seen WoH during the busy hours' codex. The codex itself provided many ways to counter this skill. Migrane, rupts, and very powerful offense in form of other professions' skills. For example, the Assassin was very strong that day. In other words: Specific skills are more powerful indeed, but the whole codex should be taken in account and not just those skills. The question is: How random is the codex, really? I don't expect Anet to provide answers, but it might be less random than it seems at first. Which skills should be changed, toned down, or banned, from CA in your opinion? I refer to skills you haven't discussed yet. You misunderstood my GW2 suggestion even though I tried to explain it again. I'll try another approach, maybe. When you remove a profession, like the Monk, you obviously mess the whole format's balance. Therefore I suggested further adjustments to deal with the changes. I came up with some suggestions and I'd be very glad if you (and others) discuss it, or other suggestions. Which adjustments would you suggest in case of removing the ability to heal others, the way it is in GW2 (unless I misunderstood the GW2 philosophy). The other CA thread, which was locked, was also made to be a place for posters to say why they don't like CA, or what they think the problem/s with CA is/are (just for the sake of discussing those problems). This thread is anything but that. It's about suggestions to improve the format, or discussing suggestions from the original post, or discussing specific problematic skills. The way you posted about the WoH is exactly what the current thread is about. Last edited by Pauli; Dec 04, 2010 at 01:14 PM // 13:14.. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 02:05 PM // 14:05
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#6 |
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Banned
Join Date: May 2010
Guild: PonG
Profession: W/Mo
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[if not 2 or 3]
Constructive Suggestion #1: Convert CA into a perma-costume brawl. [if not 1 or 3] Constructive Suggestion #2: Change the skill pool so that it employs skills that actually require some degree of talent to use and benefit from it. [if not 1 or 2] Constructive Suggestion #3: Remove CA in its entirety. This option is probably the easiest, and it's definitely better than just allowing it to remain for others to rig matches/exploit/abuse. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 02:12 PM // 14:12
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#7 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Mar 2010
Guild: NeMo
Profession: W/
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there is no point in restricting OPed skills or whatever... too many, and will need to chance every update, no point restricting classes, cos where do u draw the line... paragon healers? blood magic?
Change the format.... 4v4 is pointless and results in gimicks... either run Costume brawl style maps or old HB style maps with humans and gg, fixes ur problem with gimick builds... only problem is it will make organised teams dominate totally meh, I kinda reckon, CA is dead, get over it and go GvG |
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Dec 04, 2010, 02:16 PM // 14:16
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#8 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Nov 2008
Guild: Shadowed Ones
Profession: E/A
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I'm not up on GW2 so much so this might be incorrect, but I think I remember seeing a ranger skill, much like a ward which he could move around, which would heal anybody in range. What I'm trying to say is I'm not sure if GW2 is focussed as much on no healing or on only healing yourself, but on everybody sharing the healing. In an 8v8 if everybody has one heal skill, then it should more or less be similar to having a dedicated 8 bar healer.
But what GW2 is besides the point here. I don't think removing the ability to heal others would be good. The main reason is the skills aren't made to do this. Yes, there are a few heals like Troll Unguent and Aura of Restoration and so on, but the majority of healing skills, which come mostly from the healing classes, are based on healing your party, or healing others. So, as was said before, it would require a major skill rebalance to make them friendly for this sort of play. As for how else we could fix CA I'm not sure. I have, unfortunately, not been able to play a CA match because there have been so few people there whenever I go. I do like the idea but for some reason it hasn't caught on, perhaps because it was introduced so late? Maybe upping the amount of faction you get from it for a while until people start to understand it better would help. Or might just cause leeching and the previous match manipulation you mentioned. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 02:30 PM // 14:30
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#9 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2007
Guild: Nice But Deadly[nice]
Profession: N/
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Problem A)Lack of activity. By comparison, the old format always had players flowing into it from RA, now if CA is deserted it's deserted, and an RA streak ends at 25.
Solution: Channel RA teams after about 10-15 wins to CA. Boost the glad point gain for their win streak, then shift them onto codex points. I'm pretty sure a planned team from CA could take a team from RA, or at least match on some equal footing. Problem B) It's TA with crappy skills. The core classes have such huge pools you get junk spread over a bunch of useless atts, or useless skill in good ats(like crushing blow with no reasonable KD not even from a secondary, gash with no bleeding ect), unless they roll hexes, which is as said, broken when your monks get no hex busters. Solution: Make it less random. right now I know they have it set up so certain skills are always available, maybe they expand that list so you always have certain defenses or don't get certain offenses without the counter to it. Maybe they make it primary only, and expand the number of skills you get to use daily(no more conjure dervs, hex multiclass hex spamming ect). Or, just outright transmute CA into costume brawl light(without the costume). Lock the bars down, you take class X, you get these 8 skills, all from your primary, change them every few hours or so. This takes the super healing in a 4 man area out of the equation. In any case they'd have to expend manpower to come up with these skill lists and whatnot, so i doubt it will happen. Problem B-2) It's TA with crappy skills... on the same ol' boring maps. It's the one thing I don't like about GW, is you've got the same handful of maps for 5+ years, and apparently no way to make new ones. Now you do have some unused ones lying around, the CB maps, the HB maps and such, but we never get to see em anymore. Solution: I dunno about putting the HB and CB maps in rotation, if that would do anything to boost activity or how they might be received but i'm tired of fort koga and the delasio beach... A more radical solution: Open up the software used to develop the maps to the community. This is how almost every other game maintains it's player base after the game should have been long dead and uninstalled, player made content. Maybe make it so players can load their own created maps from their GHs, beam it to the participants like template codes, with their objectives and whatnot, custom pvp missions, no official rewards other then it's freaking fun. Maybe have a submission forum and have someone evaluate these and incorporate the good ones into official rotation. Problem C) Noone takes the arena seriously. Manipulation and lack of activity aside, there's no reason to take the format seriously. With the old formats, you had an excuse, here, just cheese grind the title. Solution: The only way to get tourney points is though GvG another weakening format. Maybe add ATs to this, I dunno if they have the ability to code that but it might be cool. Another solution, maybe broadcast the games on the TV. Like if you get a 5 win streak, beam that in the green text(the whole team's names, not just the guild tag or leader) and put it on the tube, if you can't give the players a real reward beyond AT points, faction and a title, maybe give them an ego boost. Maybe some sort of emote they can do after a win streak for a short while(like a giant book falls in front of you, so as to "squish" another player). |
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Dec 04, 2010, 03:02 PM // 15:02
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#10 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Mar 2010
Guild: Anna
Profession: A/
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I might not follow your rules , but the inactivity isn't really due to skills but more likely coz of the reward for sure. Making everyone happy about skills will make a bit more players , but probably not enough...There will always be , on a skill restricted list , one skill better than others .
@ Hugh Manatee : I don't believe adding tournaments would be nice because , upon the few teams playing , it would probably turn into same than GvG Ats. HB At's were good because anyone could register and anyone could end up having correct score. Unlike GvG , only top players can have at least correct score . CA AT's would be like : same 3 team playing , rest would be sec accs registered to make easy wins or so..... Anyway , as long as they keep 5 wins req , you can be sure nothing will change in CA |
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Dec 04, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36
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#11 | |
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Banned
Join Date: May 2010
Guild: PonG
Profession: W/Mo
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Quote:
Also, what if the RAers have a monk with condition/hex removals, power-heals, and Bonetti's Defense? Y' know, the standard WoH build that's been around for quite a long time now? /notsigned |
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Dec 04, 2010, 04:25 PM // 16:25
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#12 | |||
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Academy Page
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Quote:
Quote:
/on topic Where do you draw the line? When you heal others or when the way you heal others actually makes a big difference. The HB idea was almost identical to mine (I offered more than one suggestion), but I'm glad you offered that constructive suggestion. The costume brawl will make this format stale in my opinion, however. Quote:
I agree about point B's solution and have been offering that suggestion myself in previous post. The only part I disagree about is the Custom Brawl part and that is because it leaves little room for creativity. During most codex setups I've been at you could have at least 2 viable team builds. Sometimes they were very similar, and sometimes not so similar. It's also not TA with crappy skills because you could simply go to TA, slap a team build and go. Here you always have to prepare, learn and create unless you copy other teams' builds (which still doesn't mean you either like it or can even play it just as well). I never copy builds from other teams because it's just not fun for me and I get to win anyway. I won't say that my team builds are always entirely different than other teams, but it was rarely identical. In fact it almost never happened. B-2 is something I offered myself, except the HB (and other) maps' part (I offered additional objectives). The "it's just TA with crappy skills" was already discussed. I fully support your solution regarding those additional maps. You're totally wrong about the C part. There are some who take this arena seriously. You just have to play there regularly (or very often) to know it's true. You could even just take a look at the locked CA thread to see that at least some teams are taking it seriously. The match manipulation issues was already beaten to death. Brilliant solution, however. The AT coding already exists, and I fully support broadcasting matches after the codex changed again. The reason for that is to prevent (or at least delay) teams from preparing counters or getting too much information that could be used against a currently running team. In short: Very constructive post. I disagree about some things due to my personal preferences, although some disagreements come from knowing what's going on at CA as I play there very often. Last edited by Pauli; Dec 04, 2010 at 05:24 PM // 17:24.. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50
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#13 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2007
Guild: Nice But Deadly[nice]
Profession: N/
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Quote:
Last edited by Hugh Manatee; Dec 04, 2010 at 04:52 PM // 16:52.. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 04:53 PM // 16:53
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#14 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Mar 2010
Guild: NeMo
Profession: W/
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Quote:
However codex has meta shifts far more regularly and I like that... HOWEVER and this is the big however.... ANETs big mistake was having a game with 4,6,8,12 man parties (kinda 6 dosent exist anymore). If you take ALL objectives out competition and make it a straight fight (no guild lords, flags, relics, points etc...) it becomes impossible to balance. And I mean impossible. Something that is slightly OPed in 8v8 is LUDICROUSLY powerful in 4v4 etc.... thats the problem with WoH, Bsurge, Hexes, etc..... thats why TA could never be balanced, because they had to consider 8v8 formats as well. e.g. when they buffed PnH to balance hexway in TA.... it killed hexway in 8v8s completely.... gg. SO this is the problem codex faces... it is a 4v4 fight with NO objectives that make much difference... (lol at flag for 2.3 dps) the same TA problems exist... certain skills are just abusively OPed in 4v4 and nerfing them would kill something in 8v8. Your suggestion is make skills banned in codex.... my point -> there are TOO many to just ban.. evetually ull have everyone running sword warriors, with pet rangers and lightning surge with a rt healer... OR WHATEVER, because there are too many skills to just remove e.g. getting rid of ALL hexes would be needed, at least the elite ones etc... cos hexes are OPed in 4v4... getting rid of d shot and magebane... cos with those 2 a team can never res etc.... SO... the ONLY suggestion that I see being viable is giving CA OBJECTIVES. When i Suggested costume brawl all i meant was use CBs maps as ur CA maps, NOT use fixed skill bars, I hate that... OR just use the old HB maps. That means OPed skills become WAY less OPed... and tactcis and skill dominate. THE PROBLEM with this, is a few teams will dominate and new players will be destroyed, not even being able to fall back on OPed skill to try and win. Therefore they wont play and it will become dead again. Therefore, I see nothing that can be done to fix codex, except asking the few developers we have left to work on other stuff and not waste time fixing something that is so broken already. Sry for the negative view on it, but if in 6 months I see 3x AD districts of CA i'll eat my words. Till then, sry mate, it was nice for a week, now its gone.... |
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Dec 04, 2010, 05:00 PM // 17:00
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#15 | ||
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Academy Page
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Quote:
When it comes to ATs, and CA in general, it's very easy to get the ones responsible for manipulating matches. For instance, I've been fighting some teams who were simply killing themselves while still standing at the very place they started the fight. Of course it's not real fighting. It's very easy to catch as all. If it's being broadcasted (like GvG matches, for example), it won't really be such a good idea to manipulate matches anymore. Other than that the match manipulation horse was beaten to death by now. Quote:
Last edited by Pauli; Dec 04, 2010 at 05:08 PM // 17:08.. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01
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#16 | ||
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2006
Guild: vD
Profession: Mo/
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Quote:
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1)synchs 2) the perfect random teams (perfect as in having a good source of damage, shutdown and a proper mo) 3) multiple healer teams 4) suboptimal, but lucky teams that make it to 15 or more wins, and all those would probably deal easily with a standard codex deck. Last edited by urania; Dec 04, 2010 at 05:14 PM // 17:14.. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 05:09 PM // 17:09
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#17 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Dec 2005
Guild: Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]
Profession: W/
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Suggestion #1: Roll not for available skills, but for how many copies of a skill can be brought. For example Protector's Defense was banned from CA. It is a terrible skill, but because suddenly 4 copies can be brought despite the skill only being rolled once, it ends up powerful in that format. There are other skills that work the same way and when that skill is rolled once, suddenly every team has four copies of it. Allow skills to be randomly selected more than once and only one copy of a skill can be brought per roll.
Suggestion #2: Have the random selection actually be random. Rather than select X random monk skills, Y random assassin skills, and Z random dervish skills, just select a random number from a pool of all skills. They didn't want to make any class 'unavailable,' except that's what a random selection will do. Furthermore the initial setup greatly favored the new classes over the core classes, it was doing the exact opposite of its intention anyway. Suggestion #3: allow off-class elites. Can't do this without also doing #1 as then there would often be cases of elites being brought multiple times. tl;dr #1-3: use The Sealed Deck system. People had been using it for a long time already and people enjoyed it. Suggestion #4: Get rid of the 5 game winning streak required for points. It works in RA because of the random team selection ends up with enough terrible team formations to be farmed for those wins. It worked in TA because of the 10-win teams filtering from RA to be farmed. It just won't work in an arena where every match is between teams on equal footing. I don't know if it should just be 1 point per win or something tiered like fame in HA, but the first win has to produce points otherwise there is no need for a title. Suggestion #5: remove all titles (applies to all formats) PvP should be played for enjoyment of the game and not for the rewards. Suggestion #6: don't make it costume brawl. Costume brawl is a bad format, the only reason people don't seem to realize it, is that it is only around for a limited amount of time, so overpopulation of the arena hides its flaws. Bring it in 24/7 and it will be another dead format. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 05:09 PM // 17:09
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#18 | ||
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Academy Page
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Quote:
Quote:
Suggestions #2 - This is a very creative solution! More often than not the codex renders some professions useless (like a warrior with almost no attack skills). Concentrate the skills in some professions. Very interesting indeed! Suggestion #3 - I don't have any opinion about this solution. The initial reaction is to reject it because the honor rule makes it more balanced, but that reaction might prevent me from seeing a great solution. Maybe it's not more balanced this way. Suggestion #4 - This is something I offered myself (it was originally your idea) and I fully support it. Suggestion #5 - Although I couldn't care less about titles, I disagree. I can't prove you're right or wrong about it. This is my opinion. Suggestion #6 - That's also something I said myself. I guess this, too, is all about personal preferences. Last edited by Pauli; Dec 04, 2010 at 05:25 PM // 17:25.. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 05:18 PM // 17:18
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#19 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2006
Guild: vD
Profession: Mo/
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I already directly suggested izzy to implement a GW2 mechanic in AB to prevent a single pvp area from becoming overpopulated and even though he was enthusiastic about the suggestion, it might take months before we see it implemented.
so yes, if at all, they will "balance" GW arenas mainly to test GW2 systems. but i suppose its still too early to expect (if there is a point in expecting it at all) some substantial testing because very few details of gw2 pvp have been revealed so far anyway. last but not least, TA would do just fine as a guinea pig too. |
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Dec 04, 2010, 05:21 PM // 17:21
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#20 | ||
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Academy Page
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Pauli; Dec 04, 2010 at 05:26 PM // 17:26.. |
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